Simulation #264

Jacob Cole, Monty Kosma, Jack Boffa

Human-AI Hybrid Collaboration


Boom. What's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host Allen Saakyan. Super excited to be talking about human AI hybrid collaboration. We have an epic group joining us today, I'm super excited when we talking about building tools, maximizing humanity's collective and individual capabilities, saving us vast amounts of cognitive labor, extending our memory in all areas of life, super pumped to have joining us on the show, we have Jacob Cole, who is the co founder and CEO of idea flow, and a former MIT collective intelligence researcher. Then next we have Monte Kosma. He is a physicist and ex lawyer, management consultant and polymath. And lastly, we have Jack Boffa, who is a Stanford grad in computer science and anthropology and an entrepreneur super excited that we are going to have us talking with four people at the table on simulation. This is super fun. Thanks for joining us on the show. Everyone. pumped.


Excellent. Thanks for


that. Great.




So jack, you. You mentioned that a book on physics that really was accessible to you earlier. Yes, it called again.


Yeah, it was really interesting. And after, remember the name cuz that's I've just think of it as the quantum book. But it's a quantum mechanics, the theoretical minimum. And it's by Leonard Susskind, Stanford professor


Wow. And so you think this really made physics like it was explained complex physics in a way that you understood and appreciated?


Yeah, I mean, it's like quantum mechanics is just a very, like, difficult to grasp field. So this was like the first book I had read that like, actually explained it to someone, at least with exactly the amount of knowledge I had, which was like, very basic mathematical knowledge, and pretty much nothing else. So yeah, it was like, perfect for that audience. I thought, yeah. And it worked really well for that.


What was the one more time


was quantum mechanics, the theoretical minimum


quantum mechanics, the theoretical minimum hashtag book,


Leonard Susskind new line relates to jack


Thanks. Sure. I'll show you guys what I just did. Yeah. What do you do?




hometown pumped to share this. So I


wrote down these notes in my thoughts stream


and we're going to have focus happen the air There we go. And what is a thought stream?


My I thought stream is a giant text file historically, where I write all of


my put it even more central.




a separate thing. Probably even more. Yeah, like right there. And now just hold it. Yeah, like that. Oh, yes. Okay, cool. Now teach us about this thought stream.


Yeah, so thought stream is how I've been keeping my ads for many years now. And they've been building progressively better tools to make it easier to do this, this latest iteration but I just prepare new notes at the top whenever I have them and write them down and then if I ever want to find them again though, I need a hashtag so I add hashtag book and they can see by clicking on that a list of all the books I've ever written down and secondly I connect


these things to various people such as Monte like Monday loves Verner finish and especially looking deep


in this in the sky


so I connected that clicks on Monday cosmic can see all the dirt I have


a lot of good actually in that case. But


in other cases I have like a deleted a bunch earlier.


Exactly, exactly. I guess I guess relevant to the conversation at hand today. I've got one one cool example we're here which is augmenting human cognition. This is a book by by Doug Engelbart by the way. Doug Engelbart


anyone heard the name Doug Engelbart in this room.


I've heard it you heard the name drugging. We're not sure have you good to know


so Doug Engelbart is like whether because this is again oh


yeah no camera


yeah you're pretty close. There you go. Yeah, you're closer. So


maybe even prior to Doug Engelbart, I think it's important to talk about this all right, I


try to put it over his face since that's what it's going to be


you want to if you can bring it even closer to the camera and then put it in the center of the screen. But yeah,


okay. Let's Let's for a moment, let's yet just for a moment, because I think this is this is really important to begin on packing because your boy over here is using Evernote and your boys got like 3000 notes that he's made over the last five years. Okay, so it's just this interesting little universal synergy that Alex k Chen drops you so gently into my life and now this man by the name of Jacob Cole's like, Oh, I have this epic note taking thoughts, stream device and way of cataloging all of this information in ways that are extremely able to query later and this is awesome. So all right, teach us about this because this is obviously really interesting and it's really applicable to people that love to take notes.


Yeah, so very, very high level comment I think like Ted Nelson said it that Ted Nelson Nelson is most famously as the inventor of the hyperlink it very very cool vision of still hasn't been built yet. But he said that much of his life is tied up in manuscript handling in roughly something like that. And


you know,


he hates categories like he hates having to stick notes in a single category because that's not how things are that's not how things are in his brain is just like a constraint of the physical world and he's like, you know, suddenly got computers yet, why does the software that we use on computers look like paper, it's like in with all the constraints of limitations of paper, instead, it should be much closer to our mind is


my mind things have any categories, things are deeply intertwined gold, and other famous Ted Nelson


doing go,


I want to enter twinkle things in the external world, like I do my mind. Because otherwise, I won't remember how things are into twinkled if you have a while after. And secondly a benefit of externalising my cognition is it can become shared cognition Can I can really


remember things I never knew


if I share my brain. Okay, I can externalize my cognition, and then I can make my cognition, collective cognition, we can then say, Okay, now Now, I'll do my little, quick, Big History


teacher, as humans have now this incredible gift of life on this rock, opening the star, and


we have built civilization on this idea of collective learning over time.


That is an epic technology that made humans take off.


Yes, yes. And so


this, what you said earlier about spending so much time handling manuscripts is hilarious to me, because I do that. And it is it is time for us to find the technical solution for us to be able to get this cognition externalize it and then make it very easy for us to collectively collaborate, especially as a lot of the things that we to discuss are at this edge of knowledge. And so if we want to collectively push the boundaries at the edge of knowledge, we need the right tool to be able to push us out.


Yes, most effectively. Yeah. And, and just as a, as a quick side comment, as you say that what pops into my head is something I've always wanted, which is did you ever play a video game that had like a fog of war or a dark area on the edge of the map? Totally. And it's like, I remember the first time I played Starcraft, I was pretty young, but my hands are sweating so much that I had to create a tissue over the mouse or other my uncle's mouse. And my uncle was like, yo,


and luckily, there were tissues nearby because we keep tissues by our computers, all different types.


So anyway, um, I always have been enchanted by the city of flooring world maps. And like the world maps that are darkened, have this very enchanting field. And what I feel oftentimes separated from is the great mystery of things, especially in civilization. Like, it's something I'm reminded of when I'm in like a small cabin, and a huge rainstorm. That's when I start sense, oh, man, this is like, we're just a tiny thing. And this vast universe, I really feel it that


we're looking up at the stars in a place that doesn't have light pollution. And you're just looking up in there so many stars, and so many planets orbiting those stars can potentially so much life living on those.




so that sense of wonder, like, escapes me sometimes. And it bothers me that I don't have like, external eighth, it'll help me remember that's a different topic, remembering stuff on


demand and invading stuff. But that's how you're making the external aids right now.


Yes. And I think there's lots there's like a much deeper rabbit hole to be got into it, and how, how far we can go with that. But


my point was,


let's see what was the thing is, we're feeling kind of like dwarfed by the ego in our cabin was immediate, previous thing prior to cabin the collective intelligence and pushing the edge of knowledge,


especially I did not see. Okay, so I also feel that way. I also felt that same type of off when I first played Starcraft and have the fog of war, build your roadmap,


and which are areas for those that don't know that haven't played games that have fog of war, fog of war is an area on a map, once you spawn, you cannot see that area on a mini map. So you can only see the area that you've ran around. And then you have to run into those areas on the map in order to reveal the fog of war and be able to start seeing that area on on the


fog of war is a weird term, it just means parts of the map that you can't see. But in the beginning, it's very small, because most your maps not explored. And


then then it's like to show you really get that cabin feeling. Again, here's the vast darkness is making


me want like Google Maps to implement Fog of War


everybody really interesting and completely useless. But


there's our new revolutionary feature


right alongside Google Now, potentially, collectively,


it would, it would be a really good motivation to do that. And it's like, when you haven't


updated as an area, like you'd see which areas really haven't been updated in a long time. You're like, Oh, dang, there could be like, I don't know,


it would be interesting to see it just in terms of like, my own my own history. Like if I had data on everywhere I've ever been with an IP connection and an IP address, at least, right. It could show me where have I been? And how frequently Yeah, and then show me all the places that I've never been. I mean, I kind of knows I've never been to Sri Lanka. But like, you know, some of them are obvious, but actually, it's this little


area of San Francisco, right?


Well, it's like, it's like the mapping I want to do in the intellectual map what we were talking about earlier about books, right? I want to know, what are all the books that you've read? What are all the books on your shelf that you want to read? And I want to map that against mine? because that gives us connection points, right? You can do that with maps. If I had a map of where I've been and I laid my map with yours I would know that you've never been to Burning Man right? Or maybe you've been by but maybe, you know, I don't know when


that would be really interesting with like, points in common that people had like on the map versus an or both would be revealing.


So what you're saying is that like Pokemon, but this is a beautiful idea oh my god that's so cool.


gonna it's gonna all the dragon not even looking back at now, I don't even have to get back to this the awesome good point which is, which is you know, this is so cool. When Monte looks at Alan's bookshelf, what he sees is the intellectual territory Allen has covered has exactly the things we could talk to him about, like, who is the guy that you had mentioned new design


geopolitics, right?


fellow Texan? Yeah,




yeah. And so so you can see like, this overlapping what this is, fundamentally is, is seeing this overlapping points on your intellectual map. And that's what that's what the book show, you know, it's also interesting is showing that someone's house and you realize, you know, none of the books, but it's like, very fascinating to see that, right. Yeah, it constructed themselves and actually had some, okay, and so this is like, into


their house, right? And it was revealing that it was, yeah, right now, the killer, the killer app, the killer application of this technology, of course, is dating. Ha, I want to I mean, seriously the, the first I have very limited dating experience, but I got I was I got divorced after being married for like 20, almost 30 years and,


and I really latched on to this this great girl actually have lunch with today only because of the books on your shelf, like she had Richard Posner's economic analysis law. And she had Carnes, Lourdes translation of Aristotle's Politics. And it was like, has these books like completely out of nowhere? No, no girl in San Francisco has those books. You have to go to Texas, find a girl. Those kinds of taste is usually anyway. But that's the kind of thing if you could actually like find out just what a person's curious about and look for this connection points. I mean, that's where like the rich like the rich intellectual life rich friendships, all that stuff in my mind, at least, maybe it's in my weird life, because that's


where it comes in.


Right? You don't want too much overlap, right? Because like you want to be with friends like that, teaching you things and bring new things into your life. I mean, you know, it's cool that we've both read Peter Zion, but like you guys have it and we you know, we can talk all about you. We talk all night about geopolitics and you know, the energy industry and how the transformation of the world is going to happen in the next you know, 510 years.


So these are these interesting


part of wars and it actually is jokes because we're on successor relevant topic. You got to see what's on my screen right now guys,


so so so check this out. Check this out.


All right, all right, all right,


very close to the center of the can just close to keep going


invert controls.


Oh, alright, so just call me Engelberg that angle things but anyway here's Doug Engelbart


and I'm gonna hit jump Lex Lex


kind of like slack except for my brain. And you can see the book augmenting human condition and I click on Doug Engelbart, this is a book that I highly enjoy. Yep. And I click and more more center. Okay, I click on Doug Engelbart. And now you can see that he's connected to a bunch of stuff. And he's connected the mouse who is the inventor of the mouse. And he's connected to the five button Engelberg keyboard which is a much better community communication computer input device. But let's go to the mouse. The mouse is also connected, I do I do is connected to my friend eating. And also this guy, Gavin McDermott, who apparently is down His life passion in a deep way, and I'm supposed to hashtag meet at some point, he's connected to wallpaper. But then each thing is connected to Jacob. And Jacob is connected to all these different


indigenous peoples are connectedness of everything,




And so this is me that you're actually taking it to be able to query parsing. This is very important for your own knowledge graph. And then for for others to be able to come in and chime in now, no, no does and only get access to


knowledge graph,


the short answer is what I wanted to happen. Like, if I said at sign Alan on one of my things, it will give me the option to


share with Allah so that I can participate in your knowledge graph. Exactly. I can join you at your at your end of knowledge, we're doing pushing research, but but potentially, if you want to open source that to everyone, we can also open source Exactly,


exactly. So you need to, you need to have this multi tiered privacy thing. So you could have maybe a public one, you got one for various groups you're in, and then you've got your private one. And what's cool is that everyone has sort of a unique set of data in private organizations they're part of, so everyone's confluence of these knowledge gaps, maybe over time, and space is actually different. So even if they themselves like aren't getting smarter than someone else, or aren't any more clever than some of this, it's just really makes visual, how are different life experiences enable this creativity,


looping this back a couple of steps to whole Fog of War thing, and that the intellectual map that hasn't been


covered in the civilization has been slowly expanding over time.


Now we get to leverage these tools. These human AI hybrid tools help us with this collective learning. Push it faster. Further,


I guess. Yes. To all points. And in true improv style,


yes. And right.




thing that gives me that it was starting to say at the very beginning of this I said I always wanted is a video game where I could go online and explore the world map. But this world map was not a map of land and places are made up, but it was instead a web of interconnected ideas that were laid out on a 2d map, you can walk around this world, so interesting. Yep, this is happening.


And as a meta comic about these visions,


it's so great that we're connecting now, would it be gravely connected long ago, and there's probably 10 more people who have had the same vision and they are feeling intellectually lonely right now somewhere and it's only by ad hoc random coincidences, chance introductions, in a systematic things, this happens, we're living in the wild west Allen, we're living in the wild west,


things only happen by chaos. And this is why so many people have existential crises about doing things like making college decisions, just be like, Oh, dang, if I make this college decision, I don't know all the implications of what's going to happen. And it's going to literally be all these people dying, that I can't tell for better for worse, and the worst things can become good and stuff like that. It's largely because of these serendipitous connections between people and between ideas.


And so if there were systems that were in place in the world that systematically connected all the people that really shouldn't be connected, I would be so much less worried about about this and there's so many industries that would be absolutely like ended if like, like recruiting as an industry like matching people to the right projects to be working on is one such words setting, matching cofounders each other for updating all these things would be like dramatically solid if you could have a really good connector are really good super connector like Alex kitchen except scale the massively


Do you think that having like a sort of, I guess it's a hybrid knowledge map system, but integrated between the way people map knowledge to form Connections is kind of what I'm imagining here, do you think that would actually go to like, reduce the sort of chaotic nature of the world that you were describing? with, like, what will the consequences of my actions be? Do you think it would have that result, or mainly just like foster connections that you might not have made otherwise? Or


there's two comments there?




So when talking about creative noise, creative noises, an idea that I really like, it's just like, throwing ideas together, maybe throwing, like, like, I love doing a cloud and drawing, right? See, because I can trace a lot better than I can drop. And if I like, see a cloud, I can trace a car, take a photo of a cloud or something. I can trace all kinds of way more impressive pictures in that they can draw from scratch. Yeah, I'm, in general, come up with more creative ideas. And this is just like a noise generator. Pretty much.


But in in that case, you want to have some guests. And then on the other end, it's just like, okay, meeting intellectual soulmates, it's like you meet someone like, Oh, dang, where are you the last six years? And that's something you want to




Yes, it's like, Where were you last six years. It's like, it's like the world's productivity would be so much better. I think you just like Donald, those people to get it. And that's something you super want to decrease the chaos of. And like, sure, there's going to be serendipitous connections that were missed that, you know, I probably got five out of the top 10 people I should be meeting in the world, even if I live in Macedonia, and never left my hometown.


And I tell us the words super connector. And I like how you also make it super clear that there's so much potential for us to be able to push the edge of knowledge in ways that have yet to be discovered. Because we haven't applied the right human AI hybrid collaboration tools yet. And that is kind of this is what we are impacting. And when you're building and ask, I simultaneously think about what you said earlier, where you can go to Google Earth, and you can see the beautiful blue and green marble and it's amazing that we've mapped that.


But why haven't we mapped civilizations, knowledge, Wikipedia is course in some ways, but again, it's about visualization. And a lot of it is and for me, at least girl from depends on the way that the person learns in some regards. And again, visualization being on TV surface versus the visualization being in a spatial 3d Yeah, and that's how you can really start moving go ahead Yes,


I also project that you might just freak out when you see right now did you want to forget right now on screen it's not not not even my friends like you want to go on your computer right now to wiki dot poly frame and poly wiki dot


dot and then it's a it's a new domain so probably for me


Oh, Polly Polly. That me for a while. No, no.



Oh god. This is called


wiki galaxy. This is a friend of mine


wiki Alex


you freak out our 100


articles. 500 somatic.


Yeah, not even wiki planet wiki galaxy




Nothing's gonna launch of course.


So if you start zoom, this is Wikipedia. It's zoomed out.


Let's, let's wait. Let's go over here. Welcome. We could galaxies, a 3d web experiment that visualizes Wikipedia as a collective web of information


with it. I am destroy the world between the variety of knowledge that's available at our fingertips. And he's 100,000 of 2014 most popular articles all clustered with hyperlinks in this world. Wikipedia articles are stars. Yes, interests are nebulous. And this is exactly what I'm


talking about.


You are on a journey through knowledge. Whoa, who's this human?


His name is? Oh, and


he works at IBM IBM Research. Yeah, but this is a side by side project for years and years in college and stuff,


but we don't know. Click on the click on


anything. This is watching zoom, and we could just scrolling with yours. Oh,




It's a 3d graph visualization. And it actually runs pretty fast when you're not live. streaming it. Yeah.


Oh, whoa.


So click on some stuff, and you'll explore some web like, let's assume it's going to get way cooler when you click on some notes.


Okay, let's go north, north. And


then you can even do fly through remote with the arrow keys. And you turn that on. So you can scroll around. Right. Northumberland


Yeah, and then you can see it's connected to you on the right hand side. I think it can click on one of the things like I love want to something


like that. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay.


Which one?


Is any of them? That I love? White? White? Yeah, you can see that


I have some Oh, hi. Oh, yeah, you can click on me. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Oh, and then also interesting. So this is, this is what it's like, when you go on to Wikipedia. And when you click on that first item, and you're looking, and then you realize, Oh, I


know, right now with us spatial. Yeah,


it also eliminated a lot of information, you eliminate, essentially all the in between words, and you got the links. But that's what like, from one point of view, that's kind of what you care about, like, well, which ideas linked to each other. And, you know, it's a different it's a different processes, a different kind of engagement, when you're looking for connections between things,


a bit of a, like, a trade of bread, for depth, kind of, yeah, instead of exploring one time, she's


like, search searches, searches, like our whole world, is, has been, you know, taken over by Google over the last, you know, a couple of decades? Well, you know, but the, the point of Google and anything one it is, it's all very search based, but, you know, search is not something that it's very useful for one type of, you know, research engagement activity, but like, there's a lot of times when it's not, I mean, I have one of the problems I spent a lot of years of my life attacking is how do we categorize information? So I've got a wealth of information, how do I actually put it into into groups that are sensible for my particular purpose, and then make decisions on those groups, rather than having to look at a million items? Can I look at 1000 items that have been grouped effectively, right, those are very, very powerful problems for are powerful tools for solving massive, massive problems of organizing information. And you know, what? Search is completely irrelevant. We were completely there's about a 99% irrelevant to solving those kinds of problems.


Yeah, this entire


investment, I mean, everyone's investing in search. And then how do you sell advertising to people against that, which we solve that know that


see, we identified a super powerful potential in the technology, and then we identify what tension to the us away from building out what we actually would have really like to see it. And then what we can do is say, hey, how do we prevent ourselves from going on that tangent as we build out the next version? So how can we bake in these systems, these what we care about, into what we build so that way, we don't have these models that are all messed up with the advertising attention economy that is ruining our desire to actually


upgrade these tools.


Yes, but I mean, as as just an aside, I mean, the attention based advertising economy pays for all these amazing tools that we get to just use for free. So you know, how much value is created just by the fact that we have a Google search engine or Gmail, you know, email application or, or being for that matter, right? I mean, whatever, whatever it is, here, somebody is big as a verb the other day, I don't know what that was about.


It was it was a politician.


Yeah. Good.


The first introduced me to,


it's freaking amazing. It's




yes, it's too complex. My first reaction is too complex. Actually, you know, search is one dimensional, you get a list of results. And you look through the list, and


it's not as useful two dimensions is way more useful for our brains to comprehend, depending on what you're trying to do, trying to we're trying to do. But imagine if you if you could do a search and you could actually have it organized


instead of just a linear list of results of those results were group like, Okay, well, you know, here's a category where, like, if I search for baseball, well, here's a, all the stuff around the history of the game baseball, here's results that are around, you know, shopping for baseball related products, here's, you know, baseball cards, which is its own thing. Here's a group which is, you know, baseball used as a metaphor for, you know, sexual engagement, right, or whatever, like, you know, you've got any last night, right. So there's so many different, you know, baseball can have, I'm sure there's many, many other, you know, meetings that we can come up with.


Yeah, so, okay, so now you're pointing out that we can still gain something from a two dimensional interaction with the search that can categorize the information and display it wasn't visualizing in ways that are completely novel that have yet to be explored, because it's just every time you run a search, it's just like that, that that that


Yeah, nice. Yeah, they haven't explored. It's just that it's never been commercialized. Yeah, I mean, there was a TEDx at the end x don't know that they exist anymore. The other co pilot


of freaking awesome tech companies and tools that like we're that we need to resurrect them.


Yeah. Well, we were doing this in there in the context of a loss, like I ran one of my previous lives. I ran Procter and Gamble's acquisition of July, like big $52 billion acquisition and be with be I do some big projects


will be


if you're hurting, if you ever need fundraising


will be


sure you know this is the funny that we Procter and Gamble, but yeah. So Procter and Gamble's acquisition or Gillette Right, okay. And so we had to deal with at the time doing antitrust competition law and we had to deal with regulators in DC and around the world who wanted to figure out what is the effect of combining these businesses because couple of businesses, so they both Procter and Gamble and July were both in deodorants. And they were both in dental characters one on one on oral B, right? So you have to figure out okay, well, what's going to be the impact on competition in all these markets all around the world? And so the process involves gathering because the government has the power to compel us to do their investigation. They want every document from these companies that relates to competition and like, Okay, well, like, how much is this, you know? Well, it turns out that and I'm sure the numbers have scaled up since then. But, you know, at the time, the cost for each person's who documents that you want to get their email, their paper documents, everything, just to just to get the email and the documents off their computer and look at them cost about between 50 and $70,000 per person. And the government wants to look at documents from two to 300 people in case like that. So massive costs. And, you know, so one of the things I did was, I actually designed an engineer a process around this and then build technology into the process. And what we did was this technology, we had this brilliant, brilliant engineer, he actually is teaching this stuff up in Seattle. Now, skip Walter


took some technology out of Battelle national labs, which had developed some of this stuff for, you know, spy type stuff, you know, looking at Intel that would take take a document whatever was figure out which words would grammatically parse and figure out which words are used as nouns, and then all the words that look like they're nouns, we would treat those as a concept. And then we would use those concepts to create like a fingerprint and organize documents into clusters and put a put them all on a on a two dimensional, like, spider web graph. It's amazing. And it looks a lot a lot like what you're


very similar idea. Yeah? Wasn't


it was called a TEDx. Okay, I remember you mentioned this, and they Yeah, I'm not sure you can. att and yours. Yes. Yeah, they were acquired by FDA consulting here in here in the Bay Area. And, you know, like, like, all big consulting firms,


I don't think they effectively took that technology forward is a sad story. I better I'm writing this down my thoughts.


Yeah, I got like, several sparks on the things you said. So a TEDx


hashtag related company


then I hit angle brackets Monte Cosmo


and put down skip Walter because you need to meet Skip,


skip Walter and I'm going to say hashtag meet


cool. And where is he like the founder of the company, he was one of the cofounders IC


IC cool,




So that's how you can do what so explain to people which


Alright, so I just did guys is I have a very small brain. So if we can be very, very small group. And so I need a lot of people they want to help them or like


we only small brains,


but my mind is extra small at this point.




so what is a 10 x hashtag related company meaning it's a company relating to my company. And actually another


tag hashtag related project, which doesn't even restrict yourself to companies. But it's connected it with angle brackets, which is new symbol that I kind of receive means relates to that to read it, it's like relates to multi Cosmo relates to skip Walter and it creates a backlink as well. So if I can now click on Monday customer, you can see the multi customers connected to a deepness in the sky and to attend next. And


the fact that this backlink they're super nice, because that means if ever good amount of cosmetic can see this note, even though that note was many pages ago, and my


thought stream. Um, and so thought stream now to just a little bit about this thought stream is one aspect of it.


Yeah, so thought streaming, I would say is something that is just a way of taking notes, it doesn't really matter what tools you're using, you can put a text file can do it on paper, it just means not worrying about categorization. First, like the issue that I have Evernote is I've got to think about where I'm going to put something generally there are ways around the spacing tagging but unsatisfied by them. Because what I really want to do is just dump on my notes is lowest friction medium possible onto a piece of paper and then add a few tags really quickly. And that workflow is just practically impossible with Evernote.


Yeah, I don't will separate it from note taking even as a concept because very important, my uses for Evernote would be almost destroyed with my uses for a tool like this. Because there are certain cases where categories make a lot of sense. Like if I'm taking notes for a lecture class or something, I want to say your classes are like notes for a project. But maybe even within a project. If I like we were talking about this at one point, you mentioned friction being like a big point. Because if I'm taking notes, or I have a note for like a project or something that I want to like, you know, remember for a certain purpose, I don't want to have to fumble through my Evernote to find like, Oh, well, where was this project in my notebook? Or did I write about this project in some unrelated notebook or something like


that? No, notebooks are so relevant to finding information. You're going to find the information in one.


Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I would always just like anytime that I wanted to just jot down stuff, I feel like this would be a good like, medium for that as almost separated from note taking is a concept.


Yes, yes. So no taking. So by the way, I'm an obsessive keeper of like, list of ideas and quotes and books and people in need. But I do not take a lot of notes in class, I just try to understand and pay attention the lecture and maybe jot down a few scribbles, put the class


and so arse for the key takeaways.


Yeah, yeah, it's, it's really a very separate problem. And, you know, Evernote and one note, and stuff can do a great job with those things. And I don't want to try it to replace them. But they do it fine. And even paper notebooks are pretty fine for that.


The only downside, I love sharing my notes that I do take good notes on something. And like, you know, as long as I put so much effort in the same as we can share some people and help them and that's the one we can take digital notes. And also obsessed with creating class Wikis. Like almost him either I do this on a Google Sites, or just a Google document map to reasonable domain name. And a bunch of classes I took at MIT and stuff, I just would make a Google site that had all my notes, you know, other people can add to it, they felt very satisfying. But I want to actually return to a couple of other ones are, which is one of those sparks, I got it, I remember this. But I'm also like, just


wanted to see if you wanted to explain the other aspects of idea flow to


do you want to


I very much do later, I wanted to catch these three sparks. And also the point where some of them at least as much as I can get back spark one. So Marty made a super relevant point A moment ago, which was like, you can just take all the nouns are named entities in a document and extract them. And this creates a pretty an almost unique fingerprint for this document.




one of the profound ideas I picked up from studying a bit of category theory


was, which was costing them money. Yes, indicating this weekend,


yes. And then I'm going to get to that as well. So so the first thing is, is just like I different category theory in that which is this somewhat obscure branch of mathematics that is more popular in the UK and Europe and in the US. But it's basically the mathematics of


figuring out when different mathematical disciplines are actually the same mathematical discipline and some course in front of correspondences between these disciplines, so that you can apply the learning from one discipline to another discipline, when you discover it, like one concept is ISO morphing, and maps directly onto a constant another discipline, you're like, Okay, well, wait a second, I can apply these over theorems that I learned in the first discipline. But one of the principles of this is things are defined not by their name is fundamentally but what they are related to, like the topology, and they exist in the nature of those relationships, not just the topology, but also the types of the nature of relationships. But even if you just look at the topology of say, like this applies to all kinds of things in mathematical theorems,


like in totally, totally relate. I have an example. I was on a flight here. And in fact, it was right after we spoke a couple of days ago, I was flying here from Texas, and I was sitting there on the plane screwing around with with thoughts. Yeah, right. And I just just was like, stream of consciousness ideas. And I had been reading a book about the history of TCP IP. And, you know, the sawtooth and buffer bloat, like the problem of buffer blow, and it like it hit me buffer blow, is what I'm suffering. And what I think almost every human is suffering with their email. And


there's a there's a, there's some explanation to the point was, this was the perfect example of what you're just saying. It's, there's these concepts of acknowledgement and exponential fall off and buffer blow, and how do you solve that the problem we're buffer blue came from, so if you have a router,


and you've got, you know, incoming traffic, because you're browsing the web, or whatever. And if you're sending up a large file,


and and then you're continuing to browse, you know, you're sending the file in the background, what happens, or if you have multiple users on a network doing this, what happens is okay, it's funny, because it's all driven by economics memory dot really cheap, like, you can't buy a memory stick that's like less than a gigabyte. And so if you're Cisco, you're building a router, you want to just put a little memory in there for a buffer, will you stick in a gigabyte. Okay, so you got a gigabyte buffer, because it's the smallest cheapest, remember, you can put in Wi Fi router is going to just stack up all this traffic. And if it can't get it out, right, because you're doing some giant file, son, that's fine. But it interacts in a very negative way with my web browser that I'm trying to do. Because what happens is I asked for a page. And when I get the data, I send a packet back acknowledgement tiny, just an acknowledgement that I got it. But if that acknowledge packet going back out is behind all this other data transmission that's in the way it looks like my acknowledgement is coming really slow, what happens? Well, if my acknowledgement is slow to go, the the transmitting end, which is doing this TCP IP sawtooth thing, it backs off, the way it does is increased. If it's getting an acknowledgement packet coming in quickly, it increases the transmit speed. And if it's not, if it doesn't get the acknowledgement, it cuts the speed in half. So speed, increase, increase, increase, drop, increase, increase, increase, drop. And what happens is because of memory, getting cheap, which is like completely unrelated thing, this pattern that happened is that people trying to get we indicate are being slowed down absolutely unnecessarily. And what hit me is the same exact pattern, it happens when we're trying to email each other, because I got a giant, you know, buffer, I can hold how many gigabytes, you know, whatever, for free with my Gmail, so I have an infinite number of emails and, and they and I only look at what's on that first screen. And if it's not just like my search, it's, um, I don't often go to screen to to figure out what did I miss last week, or yesterday or five hours ago, depending on what my my rate of fluid loss, right? So the cool thing about what Jacob is saying is that, you know, imagine that so there's so there's this mesh of interconnected ideas in the realm of, you know, network engineering, and there's a very similar network of mesh interconnected ideas that match almost identically in the realm of human communication. And I don't know why it hit me, maybe, because I know a little bit about both. And I was reading something and I was suffering my own buffer blows. I don't know, this is where a lot of human creativity, innovation actually happens. I don't know if we want to automate it if we can, but having tools that can help, like,


prompt prompt us with ideas, what do you do? How do you think about that? Because that's the idea. You're, you're you're talking about? Is these related, you know, related patterns, right?


Yeah, actually. So let me let me add another thing. Another thing entire stack before popping, just because it's going to be in I have I wrote down was also at some point, we can talk about memory palaces for us in terms internal conversation to offload cognitive effort. But I just have been reading it because even faster and easier when I can just write it down. But


I'm not that good. But the important thing here that you just said is something really interesting. So all right. So


I was having a conversation with someone who's an MIT does material science research. And


she was like, Yeah, I was researching this, this field that I thought was brand new. And my advisor thought was brand new, I think, I think it was, it was the field of one dimensional materials, like, we barely found any, any work. And it's like, like, literally, like, just change the atoms and they didn't work new Dang, I run something really huge here. And I'm like, months later. So it was like, you know, have you heard of these things called molecular wires. And look, your wires are just the exact same things, one dimensional material, that there's a huge amount of literature on them. And so the thing is, is like a human who looks at these two terms, and especially these two terms in context, can kind of see that these are related fields. But it's almost impossible to


like, come up with these if you don't know the search terms. And just because you don't know the right search terms, like there's one thing that's a lot better than googling something, just talking to someone who just thoroughly researched the heck out of the thing, and has the map of the whole field, what's missing, and what's not there just knows in in because they know they can teach us Yeah, exactly, then they can just not just for teaching this for finding the the relevant information, because they've mapped the whole space, and they know what it is what it is not,


as a result of Dr. done doing a survey. But I think that, like, a lot of scientific research can be vastly sped up. And at least a lot of the connection work that I do could be vastly setup. But I can, I can say, for sure to, if, if I even have some, like, you know,


connection work.


Yeah, it's like, even if I have only a layman's understanding of someone's Deep Field, you know, I can sometimes read if I just had like a Mechanical Turk interface that showed me like, two different ways of phrasing things. And it would suggest, hey, are these two related and I could dig into a little bit more effort, I could say, maybe with 75% probabilities are related or they're not related. Of course, I wouldn't miss the really valuable, really rare connections, because I'm not an expert, but an expert looking at it could actually say, there's really, really rare connections, even as a non expert in out and connector people, I think I can, I can create a lot of value, I know, just manually enter the system to augment that connection thing, I would be ridiculous to have that that juxtaposition too. And


also, when you were talking about thing before with, like, if you could have something that would foster these connections, like a person, you know, telling you in person about how this stuff works? Yeah, I think of like, kind of two branches there. There's almost like the, the informational mapping branch, which is like a lot of what we've been talking about with, you know, how you connect ideas and stuff. And you need to build up a graph of essentially how all this knowledge connects. And that's kind of what you can do with the, you know, things that like you were you were talking about with parsing through documents, to pick out individual nouns and then seeing how those relate.


But I'm interested also in like, how you could connect a sort of an almost an artificial intelligence tool to decide for a specific person, how you would teach that, and you could almost like, integrate these things side by side, and then have like, if you were Now assuming like a tool that new or that had all of this knowledge, once you had parse through it and assembled it into a logical framework, then you could even start thinking about like, how do you have something that teaches this to a person and adapt to the specific ways a person responds to information and response to like getting told things and this is a lot of interesting areas of expansion.


Very interestingly enough, part of the conversation at dinner earlier, with uninstalled screen of Austin and I'm are sued is they both geek out about that exact topic area of having like, you know, a human teacher isn't even close to how good a teacher that really knows everything that you know, like a buddy that grew up with you from the womb like you were born that an AI buddy knows everything you've learned pretty much it could it could really tailor things to also just not to not to go down that rabbit hole, which is related resources for listeners. If no one's red diamond days. Right, Neal Stephenson, it's worth checking out the primer. Do you have you have your diamond age by Neal Stephenson,


you could put your thoughts down right hashtag book the diamond age. Find Neal Stephenson right now. Hashtag education.




And so I will check the effort.




yeah, it proposes this in extremely beautiful style. And the second thing that's that's relevant here is to know about just FYI, the previous company. And you can see that that one, then it founder of file for the like half a billion dollar or whatever, blockchain company, his previous project was this amazing knowledge mapping to call Athena where he showed the dependencies for each thing that you want to learn. So if you want to understand a probability density function, you know, you should probably understand probability mass function first, or something like that. And the idea would be that if you could track the dependencies and someone's mastered, then you can really accelerate the educational process in that this isn't just about education, but it's also about


essential to


teaching machines to solve problems. But actually, let me not only branch back to one previous point, first


question for you about that. So to do this kind of thing you're talking about, I mean, I know that like the way that you're taking notes and talk stream, so forth, it's and like, the links in Wikipedia, it's just a link, it's just this links to that. But what about the ontology? What about actually defining the way that these objects relate? So like, you know, Jacob, is, you know, my friend, Jacob is my camp mate, I'm an advisor to Jacobs company, or whatever, the various levels of different relationships, maybe we have those between ideas. I mean, the coffee cup is sitting on the table, the coffee cup is a container


container that contain idea


just to be well, things, but also


you would,


it's not necessarily an idea, but I mean, we have ontology, it's just easier to understand that concept concept.




yeah. So really important point here. So they will, the relationships are important. In the case of my own notes, I find that


a good chunk of the time, I can get away without doing it.


But if you actually want to be proper about things, and my my companies go through the proper things, longer term, you got to have labeled relationships. And it turns out, there's a syntax called jealous, it's a very obscure thing they developed for early Semantic Web projects that uses these angle brackets. And the only difference is, you stick the relationship inside the angle brackets, like you could say, like Joey Ito as an as some text and then angle brackets investor off in restaurants inside the angle brackets, then you have idea flow is that kind of




I really liked your formulation of you can get it away without doing it. Because that's like when I was thinking about your question of like, do you include these sorts of like tagged relationships? versus Do you just like say up this things related to this thing for human understanding of the world, the tagged relationship is essential. I feel like because like coffee cup to table you need to know like, is the coffee cup on the table is the coffee cup below the table? These are all like, important details. But yeah, then when I was thinking about it, in terms of like, how would I design a tool that like maps out the world and the way things in the world relate, you almost just need to tag them and not really do much more? When I think about and I was wondering, like, how important is it to include those?


This is a perfect question we got


no, yeah, I mean, I think exact basically, it is like, I don't actually know when I think about it, where you would include that data, or like what that data would end up doing, even though it's such an essential part of how humans understand the world. Oh, man,


this is so good. So a few things like you guys are gonna use the phone in a bit. And the question is, is what's the difference in Google's Knowledge Graph and idea flow. And Google's knowledge graph has like, all kinds of stuff and all kinds of vaccines really great that it knows them and they're in the background, they can, like, help you link concepts. But you know, I, as a human don't need to see most of those most of the time. And if I actually saw that might be, in fact, overwhelmed. And so there's a huge difference between


what you actually know if there's a way to browse Google's Knowledge Graph as like a visualization or Has anyone built this do you know, I feel like


there was at one point and then they shut down their API?


Yeah. Sounds like what Google does


too bad. This was developed by Danny Hillis, right this what's what Yes. We need to get Danny in this room on the console.


Google's Google's knowledge Metalab is matter what you should explain. And then I really want to get back to that point.


Yeah, you know, like seven more things to just, we can never, ya know. Well, we were already there


Metalab was a project Danny Hillis who was the founder of thinking machines one of your MIT Yeah. Well yeah. There's a great story that I still have to get the actual story to you between where Richard Fineman completely intellectually destroyed Marvin Minsky over lunch that happened there. Oh, it was hilarious. But anyway, that happening. Yeah, well, anyway, it's


none of that matters. Danny is brilliant. And he invented the connection machine, which was I was the biggest customer back when I was at Lockheed Skunk Works


day mark. He was customer.


Yes, we


I was using it for


while I was part of both I was part of the AI group. And I was also doing some, like, lot of operations research optimization type work. And I was also doing stealth aircraft design. And if I tell you anymore, kill you,


okay, can we?


Well, we want the Cold War. So I guess we did something,


you know, just celebrate one. One thing I know there's 10s of thousands of things on the staff, etc, etc. I think it's, I think it's really important to


smooth out for a moment, close your eyes,


take a deep breath,


breathe in.


So just a little bit of that, it's just going to call me We do a lot of of intellectualizing. And sometimes we get very powerful people that said without someone slow us down a lot. And I think that's really important to do, I'm


thinking and stacks


I feel my the back of my head and my neck getting longer. And this is so good. And I just feel like I'm


I'm kicking myself and opening the crown on my head to


the sky.


And just remember how grateful we are, we all must be for the beautiful life that we have here on this planet together, and how we can better collaborate and pay respect to the hundred billion humans that builds implementation of the ubiquity and everything that we have. So we're paying them respect and be grateful,


so beautiful. And building out these next iterations of technologies is very important. Pushing the way that we collaborate on knowledge so you were talking thinking machine there's been so many sparks happening,


there's still more to unpack that idea flow. So where should we be




Yeah, your mommy very briefly make two points. And I'd love to share


the first point is


simply that if you took a dictionary


and you replace all the will be substituted each word for a scramble piece of gibberish


just by looking at the relationships of those pieces of jibberish, we can pretty accurately reconstruct the original dictionary, even if you screwed up the word order in


relationships, you could


get away with it.


And this reflects that things are defined by what they relate to, in a very fundamental way.


And a related point is that this is really the insight that a lot of the deep learning for natural language processing techniques in john,


which is the fact that you can just look at a window around the world like, look at what words are near another word, and figure out its identity by those relationships. And even if you don't have them labeled, there's a lot of incredibly meekness estimate. So what is cognition about ways and what is knowing something, really, what is thinking about something it is having in your head,


maybe your heart to me, but you haven't,


etc, all


the other things that evokes the other images that evokes maybe even the bodily sensations or emotions that evokes and the same thing could be a different things to different people, because they have different relationships to that thing. The other things are pretty


often similar, like the number three no matter what,


three objects


three is complicated, but


I don't know what does the


concept of


meditation practice or yoga, a vote for different people? One person, I think it's like it's an exercise class and other person is like, okay, it's this philosophical system about releasing unnecessarily held tension in my mind in resolving conflict in my mind, in the physical things, only a tool for it. And


in each of these cases, you can summon a web around the concept of yoga for you can summon a web like all the related concepts in that's its definition to you. Ultimately, it's a bunch of images and stuff like that.


And what's interesting is when you tell a researcher


and idea


it sparks a different web of connections, and every researcher or a problem that you're trying to solve sparks a different set of ideas and connections, because we have this diversity of sparks in our brains,


when you are exposed to an idea




multiple people working on problems can be solved different pieces of the problems.


The coolest example of this by the way, I think, is project polymath by Tim Gower's, who is a Cambridge professor and fields medalist, and on his WordPress blog, he started an amazing thing, which is secure, that's great for the students. I don't know how to do it in the comment section is WordPress blog. People posted


solutions to them as in little pieces of it. And together, they've proved some things that no analysis previously.




I think there's clearly a huge opportunity to make better tools for this than a WordPress blog,


and actually brings me to


I can share what I'm trying to build if you want to share.


Cool, Can I grab that laptop or other way?




cool. So




go ahead


and start explaining what you're sharing. And then we'll share via


the screen as well as








there's a lot of problems that are really necessitated the creation of the same.


And one of the first problems that I started out caring about is brainstorming hackathon ideas






Yeah, that's cool. There's tons of awesome permutations.


Yeah, and so I started out with a Google document hackathon projects that chicken cold that net, it's collaborative, you can post your hackathon ideas if you want to share them, or comment on others,


by the way, Share, share your screen,


Yes, please. Yes, yes. Yeah,


yeah, so


looking at my screen here, this is the map of hackathon ideas and so had to start doing so now, this


is huge. You explain to us thoughts stream


earlier thoughts changing as a paradigm of taking notes. It is


paradigm of taking notes stream. Now, what are we being shown


what we're being shown. So by the way, just quick thing to avoid confusion thoughts doing is the paradigm of taking notes. It's not like


the name of our company or anything like that. It's a part of idea flow is just a thought


result. Let's Let's not spend too much time on this. Okay. But I'm


streaming is just my name for heart. And it doesn't relate to a tool or anything, we can go better tools for fostering anyone can build this






Yeah, so that's me. And then idea. So is my company. And we build tools, one of the tools as a tool for thought streaming, and it all interlinked with our general


graph creation and information manipulation engine,


which has a use case that I think can illustrate something kind of pretty in front of us, which is about brainstorming ideas for hackathons. And so


having someone like


it does except it's two dimension as


much more usable


Yes. And it's also you can add to that important thing


this is very interesting I feel as though Montes bringing this up because I think there's an extremely interesting point there that there's something about that to dimension ality still very easily thought


catalog and parse that I think makes sense and we can we can probably endeavor into that conversation or it's interesting the difference between the three dimensions to mature way of mapping this actually looks like




because I'm doing interesting now seeing it finally in play is is very cool for me and I hope for you guys that are watching this as well by the way, we really appreciate you all tuning in and enjoying us. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below, by the way to do join us in the comments start talking about things like this. This


Yes, yes.


Oh, yeah. No, I had a quick


idea on the two dimensional thing which was two dimensional, a two dimensional map, you have the most space to display things and the most ways in which different things can connect because in one dimensional thing can only connect to the next thing or the previous thing. It only in 2d things can connect to an arbitrary number of things through the sides. But you solve the problem that you have in 3d of things getting in the way of each other.


That's what


I think that's Yeah, that was probably exactly your gripe with the galaxy was like, you just have all this stuff in front of you. And since our vision is two dimensional, you end up seeing it as to do anyway. But you're just missing most of the information.


I'm going to organize data in three dimensions, I have to have, I have to be in like a virtual reality. Yeah, like my HTC Vive, where I can walk around the room and, and look around things because I can't deal with it on a 2d screen, that this is the problem. And I don't want to I mean, honestly, like, it's, it's,


yeah, there's, there's a really human cognition and perception. And, you know, like, if what you're trying to do is convey emotion, I think, like, I think 3d often, like, think about the difference between watching a play on stage versus watching a film. They're just very different mediums. I, you know, there's something, there's something very human about seeing people on a stage and moving around in front of you.


Maybe that relates, maybe not, but


I'm really obsessed with this, some of


it having a three dimensional about like, a galaxy


on a 2d screen, and seeing things getting in the way of each other, that can be more confusing than potentially having a beach.


Yeah, one of the things is a couple things, one of the things you know, you can show a multi dimensional space in two dimensions without too much trouble,


because, you know, two dimensions, it's not necessarily just the graph where you've got, you know, you've got


price and quantity demand curve, right? So it's not necessarily your two dimensional space does not just, it's not necessarily just an X and a Y axis, right? Like, if you look at what you were just showing on Jacob screen, the idea flow, you look at idea flow, right, and this is Marley. Taking notes of our conversation. This was not organized into a this is not organized into two dimensions. I mean, each one of these lines, in a sense is a dimension or maybe the groups are right like that. Now, it's very hard to make. It's very hard to make sense of that


in some ways, but we actually, here's it here's a controversial possibly question for you, Jake. Yeah, how do we get all this stuff that we're talking about in 2d organism? Did we just, we just have we just reinvented mind maps. I mean, that's like a technology in a tool. It's been around forever. What's different? That's a great


question. And so basically, Mind Maps.


Firstly, funny person and historical memory. I remember being very dismissive of my mouse very distinctly remember, I was in a science fair in high school, and I was doing some like thermodynamics research




I saw project that had qualified for the greater San Diego science fair. And it was on my mind maps help you remember stuff better than other things, I can't believe that even gotten to science, or I can't even believe was accepted in the science for to be judged, like such a such a project. And it wasn't


like, I don't think it was like,


ridiculously well executed project. But it also helped me first. I mean, I just was like, totally blind to the fact that


that when you have a 2d linking medium, it allows you to fundamentally capture different kinds of things, then in a


in a one dimensional immediately can see how things are connected. That said, might not as they originally proposed, while they did have links as secondary characteristic, they're primarily advertised and family described as, like, oh, man, they're going to be a tree structure. But it's just in a graph. And because it's visual, like, our brains are better at dealing with that. And, you know, if I was I know, I've seen a lot now there's been a lot of memory palaces, I actually believe a lot more and thinking visually, but back then, I was like, all it is the same data in a bullet view in a in a tree format. So that's useless. But the truth is that how it my Nexus is the linkages and thing is all the mind mapping software that you find out there. Like, you can get my masters of whatever, it's hierarchical. And because it's hierarchical. You really can't


do this whole refloat layout thing. And you see what clusters naturally emerges the action that I wanted to write


it. Yeah. Well, the other thing, just just just a really simple observation I have is, you know, is a mind map. If a mind map is basically just like an outline in a two dimensional form? Is it not just a collection of linear, you know, a collection of linear collections, right? Like, if I have a point, if I have a point, and it's got, you know, five sub points, those are just, that's just, that's just a linear,


or I'm building off of that. It's actually the same thing. Yeah. And what's interesting, though, is you were saying, like, what makes this concept new. And my thinking my thinking about my response to that would be like, it would be the transformation of something that seems inherently linear. I like a notepad that you write from top to bottom into something that you parse out into something that looks 2d and look like a diagram. And maybe that's a doable task, specifically, because diagrams are linear in some sense, I guess, then that like, you could kind of write them out that way. So it's almost like these, these concepts flip back and forth between each other. And like,


it's interesting, like, you know, think about outlines. Why do we ever learn as kids to do to write outlines? Yeah, it's because that's how you get, that's how you organize your thoughts, to write a paper that a paper is like the most linear thing ever, right? Like,


just a quick second, one of my good friends submitted her like, undergraduate honors thesis, or whatever it was at Stanford and comparative literature as a giant mind map with a lot of labeled edges. And she's like, Look, if I compress it to any linear format, it's going to lose a lot of information, if you really want to understand this issue, do this, and I'll guide you through how to read it. And I think that's like,


super cool. So that's really cool. But that's not your traditional Mind Map. That's something that is, you know, my map plus plus. And also just want more like what we're doing here.


Yep. And one very cool thing is, our thing is worm holes in it. So show my screen for a second,


gotta remember that, as we're talking about this 2d screen to 3d transition that we're all going through with the virtual and augmented reality and spatial intelligence push is that I think,


with a pretty high degree of confidence that we are going to start visualizing data only in the three dimensional spaces that we're only we're going to be engaging it with, our voices are going to be engaging, and by actually moving it with our hands.


Someone might want to be to do though, even in that case, but I mean, I've got larger comments on that.


You have a lot of comments. Interesting, because, yeah, because I'm envisioning layers of 2d things are really useful, lovely, 2d things. That's very interesting. Yeah, layers of to the things that's so cool, because I've been spending a lot of time in envisioning premiere and After Effects and sketch and all these tools in a 3d space that I can engage with voice and with spatial intelligence movement, rather than the meat sticks on a keyboard and mouse.


Yeah, and I totally think it's, there's some cool three things you could do as well, for me, I'm I personally, really just into, like, visualizing the sweep of human activity, and many layers, like at the bottom layer, you've got, like, all the problems that people have in your cluster, is it really like, let's just look at Silicon Valley or the Bay Area. So like, I had this vision, once, after a long Qigong practice session of like, this week of human activity, and it was imagining, okay, if I really like, like, it was like, my question I was asking as sort of existential questions, what the heck is going on here? And I somehow found it satisfying to answer the question literally is, like, literally, what is going on here? Why people doing around here? And so I was like, Where am I in the Bay Area? What are people doing, I'm like, I can't look at all the projects people are working on. And the problem is, they're complaining about stuff like that. And so I had this is like, vision, which is really beautiful at the time to me of like, a bunch of at the bottom, there's like, a bunch of problems, just observations and problems. And sometimes people notice, they all have the same problems with a cluster together and form groups around the same problem. And then sometimes when there's a group of people are on the same problem, they can provide an idea or many ideas and that sort of in the next level, standing above it, you can see like, the, the ideas that came out of these clusters of problems, that's okay, that's kind of cool. And then I was like, Okay, if you look at that level, then is that clusters of ideas, and I love the idea is connect to each other, of course, is cross level connections as well. But I like to layer it out separately. And then you go to the next level, you get like, categories of these ideas from question a bit categories, and then we those categories from categories, and then you start also from the top down if you like, okay, so like, what are we actually doing here? Like, what are we actually trying to achieve as a society? And it's like, you know, like, I'm some level like, we're all really trying to build, like, Where's government trying to achieve the I heard a joke, if Pro is the opposite of con? Does that mean that Congress is the opposite of progress? And


it's like, Okay, what if, what if you actually build ideas of value?


Yes, and this is actually a deep rabbit hole in a bunch of research and governments


around examples.


So, so let me let me table that for a second. But let me finish. The one point is like, from the top down, like, if you really map out what society's trying to achieve. So we, this is like the bottom of pieces of vision. Explain the second ago,


and it was awful.


And then like, categories of ideas and meta categories and stuff like that. And then if you start from the top, it's kind of like, Okay, what is society trying to achieve? And you're like, Okay, well, really, like Korean government in the theoretical world, is trying to really build a utopia not in the dystopian sense of duty, hope you can actually positive


pinnacle of a civilization the best we can possibly be.


And underneath that, you've got like, lots of subcategories, you could break that down into, like, you could say, health, happiness, and prosperity, tranquility, all these very high level values, many other values as the next level down, and then next level down from that you've got like, okay, like, what is like, tranquility look like, and already that is peace of mind. And part of peace of mind is like, no crime, and next is here from crime goes down. And if you start these like utopian maps from the top, and then you start these maps of what's actually happening from the bottom, eventually, you can start, like categorizing all actions that people are taking and seeing how they map onto these high level goals. And either they're bringing these goals Florida, they not stretched, good progress bars that I cut you off at some point.


But anyway, the question is, when you start to do something, it's going to have a complex effect, some positive, some negative and in that on the net, are we really moving ourselves towards these goals they want to achieve at a high level in my personal belief is very optimistic. It's just like if we really systematically




coordinator human actions we could, like lickety split, achieve basically Evans basic needs being met. And the question is, how do we build tools, me the cultural tools, cultural engineering is just as important that really enable us to go like, get together and all get more by working less. And actually, just as a quick side comics, and remembering right now, one concept that really attracts me is this idea of building labor saving devices. Yes, I'm like, for me as a technologist. It's just means I'm lazy as hacked. And it just means like a little more time for




And not just that, it's like, I enjoy the active building tools that automate repetitive task. I don't enjoy doing repetitive tasks like I was the nerd who in middle school, when I was given a word search for homework, spent 12 hours writing a program to solve word searches,


there was a doozy of a word search, I tell you in the word search was like to learn your vocabulary and stuff like that. It was terrible, limited vocabulary. But if that was fun program to write


anywhere, I love building these automated tools. And the My point is, the point is to build labor saving devices, not labor, creating devices. And the issue was like this technology that addict us and these walled gardens between different tools and stuff like that, like the fact that you can't see your email, send your LinkedIn feed in your Facebook feed. And you can't remember which tool searching because of all these artificial walled gardens data. So the data says these are labor creating devices, and that are that are various to labor saving devices, at least their


barriers to labor saving devices through barriers to unleashing or potential. Absolutely,


and thank God email was like still on the pattern of a relic from the old days when people actually had utopian aspirations. Because like, you know, how all the chat plants shut down the API is terrifyingly like, what if, like, you couldn't send emails to people who weren't on Gmail? Or you could only send emails to people on Gmail and not on


like, that's what the situation was like, right now. And that that's interesting.




so that's a point, send a Facebook message to someone on LinkedIn and Instagram. Someone on Twitter? Yeah, yeah, this is major problem. Because email, you can send your email to any other email account. That's very interesting.


And as a paradigmatic point here, it's super interesting here is like, really the devices that we have, they are really on our side, they're close to being on the company, the company side and our side, which devices are really on our side, it would be easy to write an iPhone app, that's a meta chat app, or something like that, it's actually really hard to do that right now, you got to grapple with all kinds of restrictions. But really, there should be this layer between, like, those companies, apps and things like, Okay, you've got your tool that processes stuff for you. And like, maybe auto completes, we're going to say


type as much, or this goes into what I was talking about with earlier with TCP IP, and lessons from, you know, the kind of the network side, I want, what I want, as a, you know, a write a user story around it, like, as a human being, I want to communicate with other human beings in a way that is,


you know, most appropriate to the communication I'm intending to send. And so, you know, I would love to be able to just talking to my phone and say, Hey, Siri, send an important message to Jacob Cole about need to change the time of our meeting this afternoon, and have her figure out based on what he what she knows about Jacob Cole, and what you pay attention to. And if this is an important message, okay, it's going to send it as a text, or it's going to send it to you on Facebook Messenger because you use Facebook or whatever, like, I shouldn't have to know what your preferences are, that should be built into the protocol in approach color,


and the right absolutely, and the issue with how serious stuff are constructed is like apple, which obviously isn't full of visionaries, and you're getting Apple, I would probably not be complaining these things.


If I was running Apple, or Google or LinkedIn or Facebook. The one thing I would address would be context is the context is like, the most important thing in our world, it's who you know, and how do you get in touch with contacts, contacts? If you look at Google, look at the Google suite of apps, contacts, is a is a redheaded stepchild of Gmail. It's not even a top level app in the universe of Google. And I've talked about this with like, some very high up people at Google. And they're just like, you know,


why is this not a gold mine? It's a gold mine. It is a gold mine.


Yes, yes.


As a high level comment,


I mean, this is the way Microsoft can actually kill Google. If Microsoft actually put somebody visionary in charge of LinkedIn and Twitter you're out what LinkedIn is actually about is human connection and not selling you recruiting


like yet face, Mike.


Well, because it's hard, it's hard. It's hard. You have to have the


about the incumbent industries that they wanted to overthrow. And so many people have successfully done it. And it's it's time in many ways for their slow moving parts to potentially take a backseat to some fast moving young people that can gain potentially hundreds of millions of people because they provide a tremendous amount of value and they can really quickly do it's it's big potential. It's something that I love thinking about. And yet, shall we get to warm pool? Yes. And yes,


I have plans to these guys think about how many of them I can discuss anyway. But anyway, let's talk about wormholes for a second. Alright, so my screen? Yep. Show me screen here. So you guys check this out. Here's an idea that someone propose, which was actually a real hackathon project at Cal hacks.


Yeah, so one person's like, you build an eye tracking heat map from your webcam. That's a cool thing that really it's just zoom for vision. It's just like


uses in electric ocular Graham to look at what you're gazing at. and identifies that thing could be useful for people with impaired vision, especially. But anyways, cool, really well done hackathon projects. But now let's talk about a wormhole. It's like, okay, I remember I saw product somewhere else in this map, which is exam for plants. I think it's like a tape is Nic show Zam for plants. And look at that. There it is. There it is. Oh, and look at I also finished exam for TV. That's kind of cool. hangout live. Let's, let's, let's see that you're searching? Yep. And let's add a couple connections to Amsterdam for plants is a connection, boom, it was just right over there. So


do you call some knowledge graph? What do you call it? It's called


an idea graph. Because the knowledge graph is what Google is doing. Ideas are, this isn't knowledge. This is like a frickin hackathon idea.


Yeah. And so you're able to easily search your idea graph.


It's not about searching. It's about as I'm composing one of the guests yesterday,


and there's all the connections all the people that are contributing at the same time, but that's not


even that's not even the important thing. The important thing is I'm just going along making a mind map of things manually, it augments my intelligence passively as I do it, and so


like see them for TV that's connected and we can do some natural bridge crossing the suggest connections which is pretty powerful. So you don't even have to write it manually. I think. I think the whole idea of being just a simple intelligence augmentation notebook is best illustrated over here so I say jack Rafa, he spends a tight to Canyon and, you know, jack buffer studied at Stanford. So, I'm going to say, studied at Stanford in your industry standard Google Doc, no, no, this is our This is our note taking interface or no,


yes. Okay.


Yeah. And so you click on on Stanford, and you know what, that turned blue and autocomplete into the obviously the system knows something about Stanford, they click on Stanford Walla, and it was a ton about Stanford and it just surface this as I was typing, like a normal person


a preview, it has a way that you've, you've added Stanford as kind of a Lego piece and then Stanford every time someone types Stanford then the Lego piece populates in as a drop down option so they can go and drop that down is that


exactly and so I mean you can expand people in definitely as well like for instance is one of our customers Silicon Valley Bank, and this is house to eat, they apparently the chief of staff there are


all the drop down from Stanford to Silicon Valley Bank to all these people making drop down with these people etc. Yeah, just like let it instantly go


Yeah. And so this is he apparently Silicon Valley Bank has this guy, Dave cashback, who's connected Doug Engelbart, whose intellectual rifle is Marvin Minsky and how


and then all of a sudden, you'll be like, Wait, how did how does this person connect to one of my close friends? Then you'll be like, I didn't know you connect to that person.


Yeah, like we are you connected to any of these people that we're looking at right here on the screen. at Xerox PARC, Doug Engelbart, JC Isaac, later, Alan Kay,


I know.


Actually, this is kind of cool thing. I mean, so. So what we could do is, let's, let's just do this. It's kind of cool. I can say,


well, let's just let's just pivot around Monte for a second.


Just because we're trying to do




Yeah, we're trying to build me the the homepage.


This could be it. These two facts about me. That's my entire hold on


very well, what kind of clothes like for instance, okay, so let's just so what's the name of this podcast going to be


the name of the podcast is I believe it was human, a human


AI hybrid?


Well, just just hang on for a simulation series, right?




Simulation series, human AI hybrid podcast.


Okay, say that again, it could be like, Okay, and so


I'm going to call it. The participant pant of simulation to is human podcast now. Participant jack Botha, Monte COSLA, Jacob Cole, and how do you spell your name? Oh,


okay. Boom. Yeah, I just got to tell you. Maybe it's the Burning Man. And you but you wrote party pants?


Party pad


party fans?


I love my partner dance at home. Yeah. Sorry.


Participant participant? Well, the cool thing is, by the way,


the cool thing is, I would


intelligently like,


figure out the relationship. Yeah, parties, particular pants participants there, you see that it just pivoted it detected that I have the same relationship. Thank you very much. So I typed it in. It's like Alan second. I'm friends with Alex K. Chen, I click on Alex kitchen, you can see like many


things that Alex is connected to the Alex kitchen mafia.


And if they pivot around the kitchen off yet, this is


based on your repository of all this information.


Yep. And this is my team and my collective brain here.


And it just allows me to just start typing and taking notes. And oops, if my teammate took notes on it, I just summon all the notes instantly.


What's the deal with this collective that you have that other people can access to, we tap into this collective database of when we take a Stanford but


surely you will be able to, we're going to have many levels of a graph, some Republican or private, we're focused on doing this for enterprise internally right now. And we're working hard to get to a place where we can make it public version, which is going to make it exponentially better for everybody.


Just Just follow up on that enterprise using this today, what are the like, what are the use cases where people come to you and say, I want to give you piles of money so that I can use this, what are they? What is the problem it's solving for them?


Well, there's a couple of problems. The The first problem is, it ultimately comes down to




connecting people who should be connected problem. Yeah, and it can either happen internally or externally soon as possible. So for instance, some large corporations, especially those that have acquired lots of other companies have many redundant teams and many redundant projects going on. And they want to duplicate these on the other side,


certain investment research arms, like when I can talk about Silicon Valley Bank,


they have a vested interest in all of the companies in there who banking with them doing really well. So they want to connect them with each other, and the other resources that are relevant. So the map out the whole startup ecosystem, they understand who the key influences are, they can see on the map, because they can see these people are connected all the high performing companies, and then they can


find also when there's synergies between projects at different other customers are working on. Lastly, if you want to understand like a new industry, such as like, the one one kind of cool one is autonomous driving, that we've made a map over here, you can really quickly understand that there's a ton of deals


you can really quickly understand, like, what are the key component parts, even if you knew nothing about the industry, if I go into guidance systems go into sensors over here,


and have you built out all this data or to do get this from somewhere.


It's humanly I hybrid constructed. So we can pull it from many different sources, such as scraping the web reading internal documents that are unstructured are structured than humans can review it and make sure it's all in a curated format. But there's, this is a pretty awesome knowledge graph, which you can also always add to like, it only takes a couple people who are working really hard to make an awesome map. That's, that's very informative to a lot of other people.


companies want to pay the big bucks for this because they want to make the connections to the right people in the right organizations that to innovation departments.




yeah, it's either because they want to do this internally, or because they want to do the internal to their company, or they want to do external in the world. And so just to finish this example, real quick, this is kind of kind of nifty. So Thomas vehicles industry, like, who knows what goes into this thing, unless you're an expert? Well, guidance systems, sensors, sensors include cameras and radar and LIDAR. And what the heck is LIDAR? If you do that


is awesome. I love this.


It's like, Oh, yeah, photo diodes make light are over here. Here's a couple companies that make photo diodes like these are all going to be impacted by the growth of the autonomous vehicles industry.


That's way faster than




But the important thing is, is it's what you really do in your brain after you do all that Wikipedia researching. And the thing is, we want to prevent people from boiling the ocean twice. So basically, if one person has spent hours learning about this industry, and they create this map in their brain, they should be able to share and then the next person in the company who wants to


go that is exactly what I do. I spend time parsing information and synthesizing it and then I go live and talk about it. Because at least then the same thing that would you call earlier with the Congress. You're taking your cognition and you're exporting it externalize your externalising cognition. I'm externalising parts of my mental lattice. And that way others can then come in to the word


we have


a good word


hashtag quote has decreased. By the way. I just say this because I know in the future my audio parsing scripts will be able to find hashtags women in my speech. So I say hashtag phrase I'll be able to find it in the future.


Yeah, just you just need to build an Alexa app interface to you.


But go ahead


what you're saying there that if you that if you say the hashtag book, etc.


That's very interesting.


That may be a key part of the way we engage with voice in the future. I'm glad that you liked the idea of mental


Yeah, I mean, it's and you know, the idea of map we keep throwing around. But it is kind of like a map. I mean, one of the things that you get looking at autonomous vehicles this way,


in idea flow that you don't get as, as readily


reading a bunch of articles on Wikipedia, or we go to find them or Google searching about it is it's like the difference between if I'm going to go to Paris, right? I can, I can look at a map of the city


say like, I'm going to Paris, like a look at a map of the city. And I'm going to have a very different understanding of Paris, looking at a map of the city versus just showing up and walking around, right? Yeah, and I get a sense of the whole and the parts and how do they relate to each other. And then, you know, and then I can go read a guidebook and I can go deep, and really learn a lot, or I can go visit the city itself. But those are all very different and much more intense focus deep activities. And if what I want to do is get a sense of the whole, which is, this is the way you have to do it. Otherwise, you could spend, you know, 20 years


exploring Paris, interesting, very ancient way of understanding this is how someone took months or years of their life to write a book, and then someone else who reads it, and eight hours. Yeah,




so Okay, so then, let's, let's play on this on this example, you want, you know, we're, we're


just, I just am so tied to figuring out how to best do this. Let me give you a mic piggyback on my example, little bit longer for you to get where I'm coming from here. If I go. And I build out this mental last around very edge around an edge of knowledge, and I synthesize it and disseminated and really relatable ways to a general audience of people that they go and watch this period of, I took hours and hours to synthesize down to maybe 2030 minute




then we're asking the audience to be able to somehow engage with this piece of content in some other way. And the best way right now is YouTube comments. And that's a joke, there needs to be a different way for the community to be able to build on this platform. The one of the things that we deal with in community building this, we aim to figure out better ways for the people that are part of the subscriber ship of a of a channel like simulation to be able to talk to each other about the content that they are watching. And to be able to link up with each other via email or via chat and know exactly, etc.


So yeah, look, video is I mean, I used to, I was the CO owner and founder first Netflix competitors, and we're dealing with video video is really challenging content, it's linear, is it's experienced, you know, in sequence. And


it's very, very challenging. It's, if you want to sit back and just take it in, it's great. But,


but it is a very, very high,


I guess you'd call it, it's very demanding, it demands a lot of attention to actually get something out of it. And if what I really want is to, like, take our whole conversation and find the part that was about


whatever thinking machines and meta web and really like, go deep on that I can't do it, you know, I really can't do that. What I need is, I need like a two dimensional idea flow map of the video that allows me to go there and listen to that part, and then have a conversation with people in the context that's created by the map right now, the best way to do


that would be to take the entire transcription of this video, and then look for thinking machine, go to that timestamp. Watch that, and then from there you'd like Now, where do we go in the Knowledge Graph?


Yeah, that's the problem there is that like, but if, but if what I want to do is actually engage with another member of the audience or with a or was one of us about that subject? There's no way for us to organize that conversation and have it in a coherent way. Yes. YouTube government. I mean, that's not gonna work that because YouTube comments also,


yes, straight linear. This must. Let's please.


It's I mean, I'm better. I'm just trying to map out some missing this conversation. And it's really interesting, actually. So we see your notes. Yeah, yeah, you can see it. Okay, cool.


So just going to switch from those.


Yeah, so these notes aren't aren't super duper ambitious. And you know, that the reason is, is because my purpose here with these notes is actually different than transcribing the conversation. But we're transcribing conversation. We can also do it in a format like this, we could just show the branches and flows and stuff. And he's also show the interconnections back and maybe I should actually type this up and do it would be so sweet. If we could have that in real time on the show. Like, I know, like, what, let's just let's just actually get like one brand


stop immediately, right there. We've been for the longest time on the show, talking about how important it is for the guests that is on the show, and the hosts that are having a nuanced discourse to also have a simultaneous Knowledge Graph being built out simultaneously. Yeah, that the viewership can engage with one moment. And then then not only are they watching this knowledge gap, they're engaging with it, you can see the key points being made along the way, and you can reference it along the way. Remember, in the first 10 minutes, we'll talk about that point.


Then at the end,


there are


hate going, which is the biggest thing that people are asking for nowadays is quarters to take away after your talk, what is the takeaway after the lecture? What does it take away after this meeting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, well, guess what, the end of every single one of these


dialogues, we will have knowledge graph plus main takeaways at the end of the episode. So we have to follow a discourse model that that runs with the knowledge graph and an action items. And I and I'm really passionate about building that into the show and making that popular in this is a problem. When you look at month debates, you're looking at total square debates, you want to get these things on two stages on the 50,000 seat sports stadium stages, which is where we want to take intellectual discourse at the global level, the way to get there is by adding really cool technology, like knowledge crafts, like action.


Well, I mean,


a lot of a lot of big conferences a couple of times, like at CES, I think, you know, you have, you know, giant keynote speaker, they'll have an artist with a giant piece of paper, who draws and it's just a, it's a cartoon, and they try to capture it's two dimensional, right, it's interesting, and you've got pictures, and a lot of the ideas end up being represented. Now, I don't know if they're doing that with any sense of like, where it's going, or if they're completely improving that as they go. But that's the only thing that even resembles that that I've seen. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I mean,




there's a few


days or this good stuff is better. You can say anything better than I was gonna say, sir, please. Okay, so I want to share something kind of cool is one of my friends suddenly has his eyes open to the world mean, he tried an exercise, which is to have a conversation on paper? Oh,


yes, that was


I sold.


But bro, you know, it's even easier than that. All you need to do is try to have a conversation with someone as if you're both mute. And you have to write on paper to communicate with each other.


Because then you automatically become


well, not. That's not the point.


It's not the point. It's an interesting point, though, it is an issue for you. But that's not


all the planes you just point. The point is that it starts to feel really unnatural, really quickly to just have like a chat stream of dialogue. Instead, it's like, no, we're branching over here. So you go to the side, and you start branching. And then you write it on that side. And then it's like, okay, we're gonna go back to the main branch new, you go back to the main brands. And


if anyone, Oh, this is so awesome, because it's just like, this conversation has had the, you know, this, maybe this main aspect of the flow, but then all these branches that have went off.


Yeah. And we branched into clinically represent,


and you just physically, it's just what happens, like, it's so like, it's so unnatural to have a chat dialogue when you start writing on paper. And the only reason that our chapter six chapter logs is because the medium of chat is are like in this linear format, is because the medium of chat does not allow us


to do the stretching thing on why doesn't the medium of chat get


there faster, it's been so long, we've had over a decade now, 15 years plus to evolve this out to something that's more branch


or you're talking about the medium of like, like text messages or like literal in person conversation. I


mean, it's true of in person conversations, to assume that it's like there's an inherent limitation in that technology that we have, which is our mouths like, represent information that way and graphic everything


we do, right,


like brains of everyone involved, actually keep


track. But we have a great mom. I mean, just just as just to throw the set, I mean, in any single threaded computational system, if you're using a using like a decent programming language like list, for example, what I would use,


you've got the idea of stack frames and lexical closures. And like, we do that in our conversations. We don't really think about it that way. But that's what we do. And if we actually were good about if we were actually really good about, you know, about stack frames, and stack maintenance, and garbage collection, our conversations are probably a lot more effective. But it's hard to do that, because we're relying on our own crappy memories.


It's not our fault. It's not our fault. It's just the fact that, like, our our brains are infinite. But our, our memory is our creativity, anxiety isn't very memories limited. And this is so sad. And we can augment your memory and then instinct bigger thoughts and do bigger things. I've been authentic, my memory and my thought stream. Right now, I'm keeping track of the conversation, which has more points on it. But let's not even get there.


It would be a fun exercise. Actually, it will be a fun exercise. I don't know if I'm going to do it. But maybe maybe someone out there in listener land would do it to create, like the stack frame flow of this conversation and just see what we can learn from that. I mean, literally fascinating to see, like, just the idea that we were talking about this, and then that led to this, and then we like to this and did we ever get back.


We can use to transcribe it to begin with, which is like fright this frightening legal and transcription and it's ridiculously good. And I highly recommend downloading it and just using it transcribe all kinds of conversations. But like, as a very heavy voice recognition user, I'm distinctly impressed by it. And it works even if your phones on the table, but that's a first step. And then you have to manually make it into the tree, then you gradually make it into the tree sauce


graph. But then at least we have this podcast that ends up I mean, completely a branched out with just the first step new showing other people that this is the way that we want to explore synthesizing the complex and nuanced conversations, knowledge, graphs,


crises, preschool


crisis mode, I don't actually good exit. Thank you.


So we're, we are dropping more.


And I was just, I was just going to go to do this. And actually, real quick, can we solicit viewers to see if anyone wants to take notes on this conversation and help us do transcribing in general like for Do you think we can solicit see if maybe someone listening real time would be interested in being a transcriber, like some who takes really fast or maybe as a court reporter even, but who just type tell a fast can like take notes on what we're doing


that is likely out of the caliber of current viewership. This is not the Joe Rogan experience. So we do not have 30,000 concurrent viewers, a bunch of them are really fast words per minute tapers that they can do that we can fix our future viewers, we can speak to the future you are. So if there are people that want to to be doing fat, then you can


the email the email address is in the in the bio simulation just send us what you typed up afterward. And then we'll pass it along to the team. And then we'll include


I'm inspired by one of your previous ideas, just a link to thread back that you had you have one of your idea flow diagrams, you're showing about hackathon ideas. And you know we should do is just take this, take this conversation, take all the data from it, the audio, the video, whatever, the transcription, if we can, you know, massage one up and run a hackathon hackathon around it, see what tools we can create that create a map of visual map, two dimensional map, whatever it is, look what ideas to people come up with, and use this as the input would not be fun. It's fun.




right. Because if you can sponsor a hackathon around that, you get a bunch of brilliant people in the room to take this and see what you can then you can start to generalize,


especially if we make the assumption that this serves as a good sort of poster child for a like intellectual conversation that follows some sort of framework of like what we were talking about with going up the stack, and then down the stack. Again, if we have that structure to this conversation, then maybe that makes it an easier, like, almost an easier,


no slack. We get to him because he would use it on his podcast. Yes, exactly. The kinds of Congress Yeah, actually, we just get him to fund to fund the fund that little hackathon will do, it will


often the hackathon that comes to mind if someone else also wants to help actually spoke to him. His first comment is, if anyone wants to halfway on related stuff, please hit me up at Jacob at idea and actually people who are like, good, a JavaScript or good iOS especially, but all kinds of stuff want to work with me, that's also we're hiring. And that's


that's great. That's, that's a good plug. That's Jacob at idea flow. Da. So definitely do follow up because that is an exciting, let's make this happen. Yeah, and just knowledge


and the very least let's let's hackathon hackathon projects. Like look like that the world is but a hackathon and we have for hackers who have to repeat upon it and that's like I think the future of work


will project what is it hashtag phrase


Yes. Now it'll be picked up in all posterity And so


yeah, the


truth is I think like all that we call the work these days could come there's a famous quote which is find a happy person and you will find the project and


this distance distance I


will be


logging I Love New ways more effective way


imagine you could just search through and say every time you said hashtag quote ever in your life then it would just like all those things


in my life sounds so amazing and comparison and when it's like right now See what I'm saying this this 3000 plus note taker if if it was just possible to just walk around and be like these things are listening to us anyways


Why don't think Chester do the recording


yeah I mean as long as we're getting as long as the NSA is gonna listen to us they might as well supply system useful data and


you know checking for yeah for okay okay Siri and


we got a whisper here


so why not because that that actually does make a lot of sense for making our lives better to be able to pull a full quote based from Tom interesting to collect everything neuroscience everything all these great articles all these great leaders across the world well how about Hong Kong neuroscientist okay cool that's good and you can assist what is behind him


and you can even search you know even do is do some really cool for processing and whenever it hears you talking with like a particularly peaceful or particularly excited to have voice you can bring up all the time you had a very peaceful tone of voice and then it would understand the context previously and I mean this is brave new world here guys. It's amazing actually don't even like using that phrase. And what it really is an awesome feature that we can live in the super futuristic future this week who and most of the sapphires imaginations a teacher


I love that that's a great way to put it, and we have to build it. So let's get going on it. Let's make this hackathon happen. This is a great first step in that in that direction. lovable word, let's make it happen. Let's get knowledge graphs rolling more popularity of action items, as well as we're excited.


Yeah, and I'm just wondering what


well, actually want to make just pop on one point or something you said or we just alluded to earlier, just to touch back on something that there is, you know, this is all nice and you can apply it to, you know, academic research and, you know, doing better and all that it is worth pointing out to the you know, the VCs and investors out there, there is a lot of value to be created. I mean, just the tools just for example, like just the tools that you know, the business processes I created. And the tools that we use in the the p&g Gillette deal we saved just by doing that on the entire legal fees for the, you know, the $50 billion merger, we save 15% of the total legal bill. And this is the kind of promise that is out there. You know, I'm working now in the realm of construction. And, you know, we're talking about, you know, billion dollar plus projects, you think about what is going on in our world, we're building these massive data centers all over the world. We're building 5g networks, we're building massive, massive oil and gas energy projects. We're building wind farms, I mean, all these things are, they have a lot of zeros on them. And, you know, construction is the only industry that has had declining productivity over the last 20 or 30 years. It's nuts. That's another whole story. But


no, but it has something to do with claims and has something to do with it's actually really hard to manage large projects. It's really, really hard. And in many of the tools that have been developed or actually counterproductive. Yeah, but what happens, this is the hybrid this is this is like these big stages. Yeah, 1000 10,000


seed stage, there's hundreds of people involved. Yeah,


well, you know, and, and, you know, it's just like, I mean, who does waterfall code development anymore, right. But that's a lot of the way these projects are run. It's essentially the same thing. And, you know, some of this is, is, you know, applying agile, a lot of it is applying machine learning, because there's so many, you know, you're solving a multi thousand dimensional problem,


the opportunity to create value by taking this kind of high man machine




Part of it is on knowledge. But part of it is also just sort of traditional machine learning stuff, let's test all the options and see what actually performs. So all these different realms, there's just massive, massive value to be created. And, you know, that that that improves our world in so many ways, right?


This speaks to how much value there is making the world better. But also people actually making money by investing into this field. And I still I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how many of these mergers and acquisitions happening all the time around the world where if they just had better tools to be able to parse data and knowledge, ideas, people and all this stuff that we could say, yeah, this is extremely interesting.


Okay, so closing?


Yes, I got it. Got a few quick comments. Yeah. So first, on the previous topic. So if we didn't have these conversations, you know, my experience, maybe your experience to have a lot of very repetitive conversations, and I watched people discovering, and rediscovering the same thing over and over again, in conversations like this. And what I'd love to do is create not just a map of our conversation, but all these conversations that are happening in the world and find the overlapping graphs of conversations.




that's Yeah,


absolutely. And like, then maybe you can fast forward to the end. No, I don't think the right solution here. But what the point is, is to understand that there's a lot of things that are repeating themselves and can build on top of your exact because


what you do is when you when you take and you see a conversation with the one that we had here tonight, and then we we see the similarities with what we talked about along so many other of these knowledge graph, collective learning intelligence style conversations that are happening, we see the overlaps, then we can build on the overlaps moving forward, because it seems like so many people care about that. So then how do we actually build action items,


like there's probably someone literally on YouTube has had conversations very, very pertinent to what we're doing here, and we're talking about here, and maybe it's even covered some of the same points and I would love to see that overlapping conversation and we just collaboratively by having all these conversations in the




but we're all doing is contributing to that knowledge graph to that map, that giant map of conversations base of all conversations that have been had we were boldly pushing that bubble of conversation space larger and larger


and so Okay, another point real quick. You




another point is an action item oxygen for the action one thing Yeah. So for if I had to like pointed a field that VCs are not looking into it off right now I would also say intelligence amplification, this phrase that you should look up You should also look up on Wikipedia Doug Engelbart and look at his guiding philosophy. He was the most awesome results, an existential crisis forever. And that guy's my intellectual here, but interesting,


what's the what he was the inventor of the mouse, among many other things, but the father of the field of intelligence amplification, or is it just


a touch,


I mean, okay, so very quick overview here. Um,


the idea since humans were pre-humans is like, our entire part of our thing is we make tools and I feel very much as a salad, I feel very satisfied being a tool maker and Doug Engelbart is like, yo, let's use


these computers to create tools that augment our ability to manipulate information. Just like we've built incredible labor saving devices to make it easy to a farm and do all kinds of physical things.




this is contrasted to at least AI in its original form. And often as its implemented now, it's like you were going to, from the top down,


just try to make something that will think to make a machine that will think and i is building


tools down I acres,


and they meet in the middle some some day.


Yes, they do. Very interesting. So that would be some of the tools we were talking about earlier, these tools that help humans with human centric values. Yeah, and this can be some of the more


interesting and intelligent and a is some of the more kind of like robotic style


in Minsky Engelberg in a famous debate about a vs AI and angular was like, yo, but what would it do for the humans, what's it going to do for the humans and


Minsky's like, you know, if we're lucky, the air will keep us as pets. That's the difference. Cash?


I asked him a question. That is not precedent. Okay, me AGI just be the next big history.


So AGI is very, very interesting. So, like, there's a super intelligence Yeah, there's, there's lots of talk on this on this front. And I want to make a couple comments, you know, I think it it easily can maybe, and I see some, some possible paths to it. That could happen both from the top down in the bottom of very interesting,




I don't wanna, I don't want to put dates on it. Just make sure


alright, so


digitize your consciousness, be a part of the super intelligence.


And most importantly, if you upload your consciousness, you can make backup copies. And then you can also send it to other planets as fast you can send information but that's a large different discussions,


right, very exciting stuff. But in certain people can stay biological, if they want to go for not removing your


anyway, lots of profound insights of meditation, like where's the south end and the other begin that will be made super apparent as a result of all that green uploading stuff that may happen at some point. But that's a different discussion future. The The important point here is there certain tasks which I find it


a implausible that anything that is in the current machine learning revolution will actually be able to perform an example of these tasks. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter is,


that would be interesting, wouldn't really matter. But it's like, okay, I


studied computer science and English literature. And what I do as English literature person is, I'll read a quote on be like, Wow, that's a profound quote, like, you know, that relates to some quote that I read has, like, relates to angle brackets, some quote from another book that I read like a long time ago, it's like speaking of the same truth and when to wise, quote, speak of the same truth, this is like an indicator that something is even deeper going on that gave rise to that, that truth. And this is what your essays about this is how you write essays. This is what essays are about is finding these deep linkages between concepts, either within a book or across books, and linking them all together in this reform, your thesis is like what they you know, I didn't realize how profound like like middle school English class made it really boring. But it goes how profound reading this five paragraph essay says TCS couldn't be easier if you actually do it from that bottom up


way until like, midway through college. And just it's about connecting these insights and actually uncovering these these things, not about the essay. And




yeah, so the important point here is like, if you built a machine that could like understanding some profound book and find the related quote would be super useful, super interesting. But a lot of the deepest connections are mediated by the vector of human experience. So like, if you


haven't had a certain human experience, there's no way that you're gonna relate some quote something else. And


that's not a task that even if it were replaced, would would stop humans from doing is it still fulfilling for us to see these connections in terms of, you know, May, it may help us long as the first comment. last comment is this last one, this is an action item. And this is a takeaway hashtag takeaway


is slightly tangential, it seems, but it is actually tangential in the real sense of tangential, meaning. It's connected in gratitude. And this is really actionable,


why they start making this database of ideas, why did this all get started, it's because


I saw


people around me working on things that were way sub optimal for them to be working on in terms of their own happiness, their money, making


good for the world, any of these things.




right now, there's a lot of low hanging fruit ideas that we could just do, we could snap our fingers here in Silicon Valley, and help people in a huge way in all parts of the world here locally, and in a different way. And all that's lacking is the connection of the people who can do execute the ideas, the ideas, and the connection people of the people to each other, and the curated database of really good ideas. So what I want to do is begin a project mapping out


many steps here, first able make database of all the projects going on in the Bay Area, on the database of all the press going on at Stanford, and make a database of all the ideas that people have in the Bay Area, all the ideas people have, let's say, Stanford, or anywhere, it's just a starting point, I want to then make a database of all the problems that people are facing in the bear all the problems that people are facing some subset Stanford is this to show the scope, which was down for it as an example. It's nothing special. And we have a representative right here. And the last thing is, so I really care about the world. And like, I, my mom was in the Peace Corps in Tanzania. And I got to tell a hackathon that team students there to work on projects as students at MIT. And the product that we're working on, we're like, freaking brilliant, and they were low hanging fruit. And they were


way more impactful and many times more interesting than the kinds of things people generally we're coming back from here. So to make a database of the ideas and problems that people are facing, and


invite the readership to contribute


either low hanging fruit ideas that just need to get implemented, that they're aware of, they want to connect over or connect to other people over. And I want to invite people to contribute


the problems that they're facing as well. And I may propose that they do it at the interface of a big Google document hackathon projects Jacob called. net, just add the ideas at the top of this thing, put your email down, it just literally add them right here, asked us to share my screen real quick. Yep. And just just throw the ideas on this Google document. And this will be the start of a huge repository of really worthwhile ideas and problems. And maybe we'll be able to connect you with some relevant people to go work together on these problems are connecting with ideas.


Awesome, love it, that's a great action item. And we gotta, we gotta do these actions. These are so crucial.


We're gonna run this hackathon also on like, will make. Yeah,


when we make that happen. And we'll make


we need a bay area project graph. We need that that's a great idea


to see how we can help people get people working on projects, etc. Normally, we asked questions, couple questions, then we'll, we'll wrap up.


We can ask you guys another time some of the questions otherwise, we're at cetera.


Maybe we asked you guys, what's the most beautiful thing? Just the last question,


quick answer. What does it mean for me, if I could just like point out one piece of technology is not a piece of technology, it is in a in a traditional sense, but it's technically


My favorite thing in the world is practicing Chico, which is like Tai Chi. But really basic, like do simple things where you hold your arms up for five minutes, and with the elbows a little bit, and kink things just so that you can imagine that there's like this imaginary fluid flowing through their shoulders that are really tight right now, relax your shoulders,


lift your armpits, my, my teacher says, imagine their Chihuahuas in your armpits, and you don't want to squish them,


you can really start to feel this flow in this connection between your hands. And,


you know, I think if everyone could do 20 minutes of Qigong, like it's very embodied sort of meditation


every morning, and feel as good as I do about it, and really enjoy it like I do, I can't think of anything new technology, nothing in my life, that would have a bigger impact in the world. Let's keep going. That's it.


Where do you guys most beautiful things for me, I would say, switch the inputs. But I would say existence. When I thought about the answer to that question, there's a sort of, like, philosophical musing on that, which would be like existence is the thing that creates the ability to perceive beauty in the first place. So you kind of have to have it as a prerequisite. But it really is the, I guess, I should say, consciousness more than that existence, like the fact that we are here and able to actually like, these arrangements of molecules have gained the ability to see and understand other things outside of it. And that the world is just like, completely, you know, a bunch of things hitting each other. But it's really like, you know, all these people and these beings who can understand and perceive stuff. I think that's like, probably the most beautiful thing in the world. Well, it's


almost like we're channeling the forces of nature to go do things that are,


I guess, there's a deep relationship between what I said what you said, which is like


becoming aware of energy, not my own, and to realize that things just happen inside my mind and outside of my mind, and what where does that even tender begin, but without my intention and being able to channel that is, but I think existences


Yeah, yeah,


very experienced, and that's what computers are, too, by the way is channeling the universe is tendency to compute the next day from the previous anyway,


I think for me, I would say I was a lot of probable probable kind of candidates. And the hard part is how to express it. I think I would say that it's the


getting another person and being gotten by them.


And when those align there's nothing better than that is the most beautiful thing.


It's like an extension of who you are when that happens. Second artist you're everywhere so it was tuners I just bigger.




Alright. When we simulation if we ask arena simulation,


there's that argument of like, probabilistic Lee we have to be sense, like, if every you know, universe with intelligent whatever ends up creating simulations, then you have like a top level universe and then a chain downward of like, the simulation then creates this simulation which creates this simulation. And then the number of simulations you have is vastly larger than the number of top level universes. But


I don't know, I still think probably not.


I think the best I think the best way to find out is to create things so beautiful that the people who made the simulation have to talk to us,


maybe they already have


is this a simulation? I don't, I don't,


I don't think so. I mean, we start to get into the meta game of what, what is a simulation?


Sometimes? I think it is sometimes I don't,


I don't think so. Today


is a core driving principle of your life.


I have my costume one second.


He doesn't know his


kind of hilarious,


you answer first, real quick. And then I'll I'll go.


I mean, I guess for me, it changes probably every three months, roughly.




maybe right now is to just experience things and think about things, which is like an extremely vague canned answer. But like, I think that does actually, like apply to what I've been trying to do a lot right now, when I think about it, especially like since I just graduated from school,


but I haven't, like, you know, funnel myself into a full time job yet. This seems like a good time for me to do those sorts of things. I think so yeah, that's been forefront in my mind, I'd say


guiding principles


are driving the driving force driving force, the driving force,


I mean, I love transformation. I love making a difference to you and to you and to you and to the people that I interact with, whether they're my family, or my clients or my girlfriend or whatever, maybe my kids


but with this Kaya to it that I want to make a difference to you


in what matters to you in the realm that is really important to you.




that's I think


that's also a lot of adjusting oneself to the circumstances.


But that's really important transformation.


Yes, sir.


So I'll give the answer that I gave when I was younger, and now my refinement which I realize it touches that


when I was about 13, my mom asked me this question while we were walking down the beach, I said, maximize surfing potential maximize potential to go surfing not just for me, but for all of us. And surfing takes lots of forms. And a lot of things you can realize or surfing like when you surf the waves,


thoughts, the bubble up in your mind in meditation, that's also a form of surfing. Yeah, it's also about channeling energy, not your own. And if you maximize surfing potential this word and tell a lot of things in a very literal way. I was thinking at that it's like, you know, she's got really good wave pools in like, the Middle East, everywhere, everyone's going to be surfing and then the not going to be like being terrorists. And that was my my middle school conception of assault.


And you know, then I really realizes that another several levels on this. And if I had to


nail one


thing I would be to


maximize the flow of love


and G


and you go to release a lot of kinks in the world for that to happen. A lot of stuck places, it's realizing that there's all this unnecessarily attention it really seeing where this is this unnecessarily tell me how tension is can you can see how to be so much better. And then new release. It's just so satisfying. Doesn't matter if it's you or another person is what does that even mean? Just tension. And


when I connect people to each other gets, like, unlocking that potential


in the world. Yes.


And it's, it's getting that boom, when


I practice she Gong,


I unlock the


muscle tension in my mind, and in my body. And sometimes even in the world around me, that is


restricting flow of love and my attention. When I help someone is having a struggling emotional time, what it really comes down to is, there's this blockage, or this this restriction, and I want to unlock that restriction. Or if a couples therapist goes and helps a couple that's having a bad time. It's really it's not about what's right and wrong. It's what what keeps the love flying.


And if I had to generalize, I would say all these things I'm doing, you're trying to maximize in it's always hits them in those I had these profound states and mine from the list. Unusual and unexpected places,


I just suddenly feel like wow, this is a profound moment. This is what I was always trying to, to building. And I see that that love is the thing that


allows you to forgive your


when when you really feel that profound state and you're right there, you realize


that you know that this is really like you can suddenly forgive yourself for 10,000 past mistakes. Because you realize, you know, this thing I have right now, this is the thing that I spent all my lifetime trying to build. And no matter what I screwed up on, I just achieved the thing. Doesn't matter what else happens next. Now,


this was


super fun time. It's such a good time with you guys.




guys wanna thank everyone for for tuning in?


I want to.




this has been crazy,


longest show we've done yet. Thanks everyone. We appreciate it so much. And


yeah, to 20 crazy.


This has been awesome. Human AI hybrid collaboration super multifaceted. It's been a lot of fun guys talking about this building tools, maximizing humanity's collective and individual capabilities, saving us vast amounts of cognitive flavor going to extend our memory in all areas of life. We'd like to, we'd love to hear from you all below. We'd love to hear from you. In the comments. Let us know what your thoughts were on episode and go and build the future. Everyone go and


go and build these tools that we're talking about. Join us in our efforts as we go. And we do things like move forward in making this hackathon happen. Making these twists even better, and build your own dreams into the world. Everyone. Much love We greatly appreciate it. Yes.


And submit that list of ideas can problems


submit the list of ideas or problems and that's that's it. Monty


jack. Much love. Thanks, everyone for tuning greatly appreciated, and we'll see you soon. Please keep supporting artists and entrepreneurs that you believe your players to happen everyone. All right.


We're out.